Show 07 -- Employment

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Hello, and welcome to Disability411, the podcast for disability professionals. My name is Beth Case, and I'm your host. And this is the podcast for the week of January 9th, 2006.

Welcome back, everyone. I hope you all had a really great holiday, I know I did. I took a little extra vacation time and I've been off of work for three weeks. Which was just luxurious! I now feel rested and relaxed and rejuvenated and my batteries are recharged and I’m all ready to go back to work on Monday. But as you can tell, I managed to catch a really nasty cold over the holidays and in fact, didn’t have much of a voice at all for almost a week. And it’s still kinda raspy and I’m still coughing a lot. So rather than stress my voice, or have to edit out a whole bunch of coughs or make you listen to this mess, I am going to leave out the announcements and the feature of the week this week and get right to the interview. I do have some very exciting announcements, but they’re just going to have to wait until next week so you all have something to look forward to.

Our interview this week is with Diego Demaya who is with the Disability Law Research Project and he’s going to be talking about how to address having a disability when you go to a job interview. Now I do apologize for the quality of this interview. I recorded it a while ago when I was first starting to podcast and I hadn’t learned as much as I know now about recording quality and so forth, so it does sound a little bit like we’re talking in a tin can. But the information was good enough that I felt like it was worth suffering through a little bit of echo.

As always if you would like to check out our show notes or our web site or the transcript for this podcast, can be found at disability411.jinkle.com. You can email me at disability411@jinkle.com . Or you can call and leave a voice mail message at 281-668- 4662. So enjoy the interview and I will see you all next week.

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Beth: Today we have with us Diego Demaya who’s a legal specialist with Disability Law Resource Project. His background is in public interest law and today he’s going to be talking to us about employment issues related to disabilities and he’s going to give us a lot of really helpful information for individual with disabilities who are in the job search or application process. So, Diego?

Diego: Thank you very much, Beth.

Beth: Glad you’re here.

Diego: Glad to be with you. I think you had mentioned during our pre-discussion before this that you get a lot of questions or people asking you about the pre-employment stage. Right? And in providing technical assistance relating to the ADA I come across that all the time, every day, people who just, who have disabilities but they don’t really know what to do about the disability regarding when they go to the interview, you know, do I mention it, do I not mention it, what happens if you have a hidden disability such as a mental illness or cognitive disability or a learning disability. What happens if you use a wheelchair? How do you, you know a lot of people have a tendency when they go to an interview, they want to hide their, what they perceive themselves as being negative parts of themselves. And let’s face it, I mean interviews are about what the interviewer across the desk is looking at, which is you, applying for the job. And so naturally they, they’re very nervous, the people that are talking to me about this; some of them have jobs already but they’re looking for other work. Some of them are getting out of college and you know, they want to go apply for work; and you know, what do I do?

And the training I’ve had in law school made me very aggressive about and assertive about how you deal with employers, because you know, they have to have an employment resource office like every college does but when you go in interview with law firms, they’re just cutthroat. You know, if they don’t like what they hear you’re out of there, it’s as simple as that. And so I kind of had a first hand look at how do I deal with the situation because I have a disability myself, I am legally blind, and because I can see, people usually can’t tell that I have a disability until I’m, either they see me working with my large print computer. They see me working with adaptive equipment in my office with large print or using a speech synthesizer or magnifier and they ask me, Oh you have a sight impairment. The question that always comes up is “What do I do?” I mean, do I tell them I have a disability or do I not say anything and just go through the interview?

You know? And that’s the quintessential question, right, I mean how do you deal with it. If you’re missing a limb, missing a hand and you have a prosthetic hand, a prosthetic arm, I mean anyway, the point is what do you do and my first observation is always “What difference does it make?” Because the reason why, and people forget this, why are you applying for a job to begin with? It isn’t merely because you want to get paid, because you want the money to pay the bills, I mean everybody wants to do that, so that’s common sense, that’s like, you know, we know that already. But why do you apply for the job? Because you think you’re qualified for it, because you looked at it and you said, Oh, I can do that, you know? I can handle that work, whatever the job description is, what that vacancy opening says. So you go there and by the time you get there you forget that the reason why you’re even there is because you know you can do the job. It’s not that you think or believe it, you know you can do it. Otherwise you wouldn’t have the audacity to go there and say I want to do this job. I want to go drive a bus but you’re blind, you know, I mean you’re not qualified. So people don’t usually do that. They apply for a job because they know they can do it; especially college students, people out of technical school.

So, you know, anyhow, what happens is they get caught up with the interviewer asking questions and they forget all about the fact that they went there to figure out if they really want this job. And people don’t think of it that way. And what I tell them is “Yes, you have a disability and no you can’t hide it." Unless you’re one of those people who has a hidden disability like I mentioned earlier. You might get away with the interview and even get hired and not mention it at all until the accommodations process which comes after you’ve been hired and you’re certainly welcome to do things that way. You know, the number one thing I tell people is disability is irrelevant to where you’re sitting in the chair interviewing. It has nothing to do with why you’re there. You are there because you think, you believe or you know that you can give them their money’s worth in work and labor. Whatever the job is. And so the disability is not an issue. I mean it’s only an issue if you make it an issue. And if you need to request accommodations, the reality is that accommodations come afterward; it’s when you’re offered the job. So I tell them, ok, you don’t have to worry about the disability even if you know that you’re going to need a specialized adaptive computer, even if you know you’ll need a lower desk because of your height problem.

So when you go to your interview, I mean, this happened to me, I’d go to the interview and I’d be all nervous because I’m legally blind and thinking, these attorneys want me to do grunt work for them which is a lot of legal research, a lot of legwork and the minute they find out I’m legally blind, oh my gosh, I mean, gee, how much money you going to cost us, how much longer is it going to take you to do all this? Well, the truth of the matter is, that was never a problem. It just wasn’t a problem, I was making it a problem, but it just wasn’t a problem and when I realized that I started going to interviews, basically, after I re- invented myself after a lot of interviews of experience I realized that I could just sit back, relax, cross my legs or sit still and just talk about myself and what I know and I realized that I could also sit back and think about what I wanted to ask them like “Tell me why I should consider working for you. I mean, I know your benefits are generous, I know that you provide parking for my car but how am I going to survive in your company? I mean am I going to exist in your company or am I going to just go sit in a cubicle and disappear?” And when you do that it elicits a lot of other interesting comments from them and observations and they open up to you; all of a sudden your disability is like, distant, it doesn’t exist.

So practically speaking people with disabilities have all these rights under the Americans with Disabilities Act, Title I, which is employment, they have all these different rights to request reasonable accommodations during the pre- employment stage and the post-employment stage and that’s usually not a very big problem because the rights are there and we all know that they’re there, you can look up any kind of publication just about that the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission has published and they deal with just about any type that you can imagine. You can go to the Job Accommodations Network and look up your specific disability to see how they’ve been accommodated at work, all these materials are available free and so it’s no longer an issue of whether you know your rights and whether you know you can be accommodated, generally speaking you’re going to be accommodated. There’s a way to do it.

Beth : I think some of the students I work with, what they’re concerned about is if they have a disability that’s obvious and like, for example, say they have a vision loss and it’s severe enough that it’s quite obvious that they have a severe vision loss and they’re going to be expected to work on a computer or they’re going to be expected to work on files like you said you said you’d do a lot of library research, is that a, should they mention in the interview how they’re going to be able to do those jobs? I think some of their concern is that the interviewers are going to assume that you know they’re not going to be able to do the job or they’re going to need a lot of expensive accommodations to do the job and therefore not look at them as seriously as someone who doesn’t have a disability. Should the interviewee bring up, you know, that I am able to do library research with the use of a scanner and screen readers. Should they bring that up at all or are you saying that perhaps they should just not address those issues?

Diego: No, that’s a very good observation, Beth. That’s the question and that’s what I started out with and the one thing that’s really important is that the person has to be comfortable with their disability and let’s face it, many of us aren’t. I mean, I’m 43 years old and I still have certain discomforts, like when I go out sometimes and there’s a certain sense of embarrassment to ask somebody to help you, say to carry a food tray in a cafeteria, because you know, you could bump into somebody and drop food all over the place and over somebody else and that’s not nice and I have a particular difficult time as many other legally blind people do because people don’t know that they’re blind so if I have my cane out, which I have a cane, I use a cane, when I’m out in the city, when I’m in the city using public transport, you know, crossing streets, I got to have my cane out so people know I’m blind. And so that makes a big difference in how they perceive me and they’ll either step out of the way or say ”Do you need some assistance?” And the thing to realize is that you cannot be afraid to say “Yeah, I need assistance, yeah, I need help getting to this address”. I can’t see the address that’s on the walls or to get to this room at a college or to a classroom number or whatever.

So it’s the comfort level that you have with your disability that determines how you’re going to deal with it at the pre- employment interview and I mean that sincerely because if you’re uncomfortable with it then they’re going to notice it and pick up on it because you’re going to be talking way too much about it and they’re going to start trying to figure out, well is this person hung up on this and is it going to cost me a lot of money? Just as you said. Now the other situation works just as well. What happens if you don’t say anything about it at all and you conduct the interview and they ask you some simple basic questions and they say ok, we’ll let you know when they’re going to hire you. I use to have the tendency of feeling, gee, you know, they noticed that I’m legally blind I’m not going to be hired. They didn’t even ask, they didn’t say anything, you know, they said, well gee you have a great background and great education and we think you’ll really be great doing this and we’ll let you know. But that’s the problem. The problem is that the EEOC doesn’t have any laws that helps us read their minds to see what they’re thinking. We have no way of knowing what the interviewer on the other side of the desk or interviewers, I’ve had interviews with ten people across the desk. There’s no way of knowing what they’re thinking, what’s going through their minds and so the only way you can deal with that is by being very comfortable with yourself, with your disability, with your skills and with what you know, which is, I can do that job. I can do that job, I can do that job, no problem, so that’s not an issue for me.

Beth: So it sounds like there’s not necessarily one answer; it’s not that you should always bring it up or never bring it up but it’s more your confidence in yourself and you’re ability to do the job that may be more important.

Diego: Right, I think that we need to ask questions like after you’ve gone through say, several questions and answers during the interview and say you’re a half hour into it, you know, and things are kind of coming down and you kind of pretty much detect that it’s going to be the end of the interview pretty soon you need to learn that you’ve got to ask questions like do you have any questions about me that aren’t answered even if they relate to anything that you might think would be illegal to ask. Please ask away, fire away, you know, and if you’re that comfortable with it, then mention it. If you feel like you have to mention it. I’ve been through several interviews where I’ve actually said, you know, I’m, I’m legally blind. Do you have any questions about that? Is there something that you would like to know because I do have needs that relate to my disability but I’m here to assure you that this is not going to be a problem. But you see how dangerous that sounds? You may not necessarily want to use those words or say that much because again, the problem is, is, if the interviewer, I promise you this, if the interviewer detects that you are afraid then you might as well say goodbye, ok.

Beth: So, they may not have even been concerned about the disability until you brought up that you have concerns.

Diego: Absolutely; a lot of interviewers today are sophisticated; I would say that a lot of them are. I’m not going to say 80%, but good 60% of interviewers that you deal with, who interview for a living, right, who are there to interview you for a job, like a recruiter, you know, HR professionals or HR assistants, they’ve been trained and they’re not going to ask you about a disability because it’s illegal to ask you about it. So they might be waiting for you to open the door and you can open the door if you want to or not open it at all. But the main point is this: if you are worried about your disability, if you are worried about how much you’re going to get paid, and if you are worried and nervous about whether or not you can do the job, don’t even apply. Those three items, you better know full well that you can do and that you don’t have any problems with or insecurities about, so…I’ve sat at interviews where I was offered the job on the spot, okay, because I went there to interview them, that’s my attitude. I couldn’t care less what they asked me. I know myself, I know my resume; I don’t have to start reading it, right? It’s silly if you have to sit there and read your interview, I mean read your resume, okay. I knew the questions that, I could predict more or less the questions they were going to ask me. You have to practice those, okay.

And they’re going to ask you cut-throat questions like, “Gee, you’re legally blind, how are you planning on getting to work on time?” Well, the problem with that question is that it’s a double-edged sword. You can say, “ Well, I rely on public transport so I don’t think I’m going to have much of a problem” because then they can say “Well, public transport is really unreliable and we need you to be here on time.” How do you answer that? They just put you on the spot where the best answer probably would have been “I’m sorry, transportation is not really a problem for me. Is there something that you’re specifically concerned about?” So I just turn the question back at them. See, if they want to ask me about disability they better be careful what they’re going to ask, okay, and usually when you ask them the question they’ll say, “Oh, no, we don’t really have any issues, we’re just kind of interested in how you get around” and all of that and then I’ll tell them, “Well you know, it’s a combination of things, I mean I car pool, I use public transport.” So that’s how you do that, interviews are playing tennis and you got to keep throwing the ball back in their court when they throw it back at you and those are cutthroat questions.

Beth: It sounds to me like that a lot of the things you’re saying are true for anyone that’s looking for a job. I know from personal experience that the times when I was desperately looking for a job it seemed like, I, you know, I never got the job I was applying for and when I applied for a job when you know, I had a decent job and this other one looked really interesting, I would get those jobs. And I think it’s like you said, it’s part of that confidence, not going in feeling desperate and that you that need to just feel confident in yourself and your abilities to do the job and I think that’s great for anyone.

Diego: Let me mention the bottom line; in interviewing the bottom line is you don’t have the job, nobody has promised you the job, so what is it that you’re worried about? I mean, you have nothing to lose, literally, and if you’re going to worry about, gee, am I going to get the job, am I going to get the job and you have sweaty palms and your hair is undone, you know, and you forgot something at home and you didn’t bring the resume, you know, all these things can really cloud you up and you know, what are they going to do when they see me in my wheelchair, you know, all these things just cloud you, they cloud your judgment and your confidence level to no end, I mean it’s just doesn’t go away.

Beth: So stay positive, focus on your abilities, and interview them as much as they’re interviewing you.

Diego: I always recommend, for practical purposes, I always say don’t walk in there and mention you have a disability, because that is not what it’s about. They’re there to interview you for the job and because they saw that you were qualified. Don’t forget that, by the way. It’s a big point. They called you because you were qualified. Disability is not what you mention first. You may need to mention it afterward, but not initially, no. And even if it’s obvious, or if it’s not obvious, I think the rule applies the same way.

Now, one last comment. People often ask what happens if I can’t fill out the application, the employment forms, because that’s a legitimate question. That’s pre-employment as well. The pre-employment process is very basic. The EEOC offers a lot of materials on how to request pre-employment accommodations. And again, it goes to your comfort level. You should not be afraid to say “I need assistance to fill out this really long form. This is a really long, complicated form. It’s going to take me a long time to fill it out. Would you please help me fill it out? I’ll provide the information and you write it in.” If it’s that type of situation. Or you can simply go by and request the application form and take it with you and bring it back filled out completed. You can have it mailed. There’s all kinds of things you can do and employers are supposed to accommodate. I’ll say that some of them don’t, and they don’t want to release their application forms, but at least they should give you the opportunity to come in ahead of time, way before the interview so you can do this, then turn it in, then go to the interview tomorrow. Or a few days before, you fill out the application then you go to the interview.

Beth: I’d like to ask you about one more thing. What if a person needs to have an accommodation during the interview, such as a sign language interpreter or some other accommodation that they’re going to need during the interview. How should they go about arranging that?

Diego: Yeah, people with hearing impairments present some real issues that I think have been dealt with in many different ways as you probably heard, or know, so when a sign language interpreter is necessary, and I think that during an interview it probably would be, then I think that notice is important. That the applicant gives due notice with enough time for them to find an interpreter. I think that’s fair and I think that that’s reasonable and it is a requirement under the ADA. Even though the ADA doesn’t say “Thou shalt give notice”, it’s unreasonable to expect an employer to contract with an interpreter within a day’s notice. That’s not enough time. Also, it’s possible that the employer has somebody on staff who can do it, but they have to give them notice so they can get away at that moment. So due notice is necessary. And absolutely feel comfortable about it, don’t feel nervous about it. Notice is important. And again, it’s the same principle. It’s the comfort level and you have to be willing to be comfortable about calling up on the TDD machine, the TTY machine and saying “I will need an interpreter, can you please have somebody there? That’s why I’m calling you in advance.”

Beth: And not be apologetic about it or embarrassed…

Diego: Oh no, apologies are not necessary and explanations are not going to be necessary because if you’re deaf, you’re deaf. If you’re hard of hearing, you’re hard of hearing.

Beth: If our listeners have questions and would like to contact you, can you give us your contact information?

Diego: Yes, my contact information. You can reach me at the Disability Law Resource Project, because I answer what’s called the ADA Hotline throughout the five state region in the southwest. It’s 1-800-949-4232 and that’s for TDD and TTY and voice. Otherwise they can visit our website which is dlrp.org. And they can actually find my name on the website, because I’m listed on the website and they can go through there and submit email questions through the web site as well.

Beth: That’s fantastic. And we’ll be back in just a minute.

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Have questions or need clarification on disability law? For answers and more information, please call the Disability Law Resource Project at ILRU, a program of TIRR at 1-800-949-4232 this is both voice and TTY compatible. Or visit our website at www.dlrp.org. The Disability Law Resource Project is funded by the National Institute on Disability, Rehabilitation and Research, a program of the Department of Education.

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Well, that’s our show for this week. I hope you enjoyed it and hopefully next week I’ll have my voice back and you’ll hear a little more from me. In fact, I wasn’t going to come back for a closing except I realized that I got the name of DLRP wrong. It is the Disability Law Resource Project, not the Disability Law Research Project. And I am always getting that name wrong, so my apologies out to those folks because they do an amazing job and I would hate to get their name wrong.

As a reminder, you can find our web site, show notes, transcripts and all past episodes at diability411.jinkle.com. You can email me at disability411@jinkle.com. And you can leave a voice mail message at 281-668-4662. And don’t forget to add yourself to our Frappr map. It’s really very interesting to see where all of our listeners are. You can find out information on that at our website.

So again, I’m Beth Case, I’m your host for Disability411 and I will talk to you all next week.

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The Disability411 podcast is brought to you by Jinkle.com, with the cooperation of the PEC Texas SOTAC, AHEAD in Texas, and DLRP, a project of ILRU, a program of TIRR.

If you’d like to know what all these abbreviations mean, visit our website at disability411.jinkle.com.

(Transcribed by Beth Case and annonymous volunteer)